This doesn’t seem like withholding features because you don’t let them process your data, but that they CANT give you these features unless they have the data to do it — like, They obviously need to get your email data to give you flight info in calendar. Am I missing something…?
Right, I am normally very quick to criticize google with their "privacy" tactics and have largely cut google out of my life...
But this seems... right? and long overdue. If they can't look at your data they can't do these things.
The way they are framing this however, yeah that is a bit shady and would likely encourage more people to allow it. Reminds me of the tactics Facebook tried with the app tracking apple did. But... still.
Now if only google could also ask for the permission of the person sending you the email that would be great, but that is a pipe dream.
The problem is the bundling of consent. I understand they need to use that specific piece of data if I want to use that particular feature, but they could also have given the choice of "Let us use the data for the feature, but nothing beyond that", together with "Use the data for improving the services for everyone" and "Don't use the data for anything", just like it was before.
Instead, they're bundling "Use the data for the functionality" and "Let Google store the data indefinitely, and use for improving any other Google service", which is the part that leaves me with a sour taste in my mouth.
Some relevant parts that many comments here seemed to have missed:
> When smart features are on, your data may be used to improve these features [...] To improve our services. If you have turned on any of the smart features settings, we may also process your Workspace Content & Activity to improve these features. [...] Developing new products and features [...] Performing research
Correct. But bundling matters (I have to confirm not only the event forwarding but also Gemini and search features). And the fineprint surely allows them also to do more than just that.
Disclaimer, I work at Google, but I recommend reading the ToS for Google consumer and business services, and I believe the short version of the policies on this have been documented on the Google blog several times. I can't comment on the policy directly, but encourage you to research it, there's a pretty straightforward answer.
Separately, the industry standard elsewhere appears to be that if you're a free user your data is used for training, and if you're a paying user it's not.
I am either reading the wrong ToS, or not getting it [1]:
Permission to use your content
[...]
This license is for the limited purpose of:
[...]
- developing new technologies and services for Google consistent with these terms
The last item sounds like Google can use my content to train an LLM, no?
> Your content is not used for any other customers. Your content is not human reviewed or used for Generative AI model training outside your domain without permission.
And I think the default assumption has to be that those policies are actually followed. If you think they aren't, the burden of proof is on you to show they aren't.
What the OP of that comment and yourself have missed is that Google is not trustworthy enough to give it permission, which the user you're responding to pretty much suggested as a solution (Google should be trustworthy to be given a one-off permission).
The amount of times Google has been caught out doing things they shouldn't be means that no, no one has to prove that it's a reasonable assumption that Google follows policies, not even their own.
It's for you to prove that they can be trusted (good luck with that!).
> Either allow us to process and use your data however we want, or disable these existing features we've offered for many years
That's not an accurate description. It's not "however they want", it's pretty clearly scoped for the data being used across Workspace apps.
> such a great direction to take your service
Also, none of this is new. That setting has been around to control exactly those features for years[0]. It's off by default in some countries, on by default in others, depending on the local laws/regulations.
It's new in the way that I couldn't proceed to use gmail web interface unless I made a choice. And the documentation link made it clear they won't just use the data between Workspace apps, it's for "improving the services for everyone" and "selected" 3rd parties.
Features I used to be able to use yesterday are no longer possible to use without agreeing to that new data sharing, it seems
You're in the EU, right? In that case these features have been off by default for years (I posted a link to the 2021 documentation showing that, but I'm 95% sure it was already the case pre-Covid). If you've been using these features for years, it kind of suggests you'd already consented to exactly this level of data use before, and just forgot about it.
I haven't agreed to any of those features explicitly, the thing with flights/reservations appearing in Google Calendar has been a feature for years and don't recall that needing an explicit agreement that Google can use that same data for improving other Google services. It wasn't until today (it seems) they asked for explicit permission for that.
I'm pretty sure what's happened is that you'd agreed to it and forgotten. These features were very explicitly turned off in the EU half a decade ago, and all European users had to make an explicit decision of whether to opt in or not via exactly this kind of modal consent dialog.
Fair. But I don't think that page is saying what you originally said it did. They're not asking for consent for using data for product improvements or sharing with third parties. Consent is the stated legal basis for using the data for providing the features. Legitimate interest is the basis for using the data for product improvements. I can see no claim about data being shared with third parties.
> European users had to make an explicit decision of whether to opt in or not via exactly this kind of modal consent dialog.
Ok, lets assume I did accept it (or not), then why ask again? Clearly something has changed, otherwise they'd just use my previous consent (or lack of).
> They're not asking for consent for using data for product improvements
My reading of that is that they are, some highlights you might have missed:
> > When smart features are on, your data may be used to improve these features [...] To improve our services. If you have turned on any of the smart features settings, we may also process your Workspace Content & Activity to improve these features. [...] Developing new products and features [...] Performing research
That basically says they can use the data as long as it ends up being used for a new product/feature, which can essentially be anything.
Its apparently a false dichotomy of "Allow Gemini access to your data" or "Disable display of email events in calendar". Although maybe under the hood they were always using ML and the new ML algorithm is an LLM...
And remember — even if you turn off all those features in Workspace, Google will still forcibly make you pay more for the privilege.
I just got told my Workspace plan is hiking another $2 a month for “AI” features I already have turned off at an administrative level — so I guess Google gets to grope around my wallet for some extra change out of desperation.
The complaint is that I used to be able to see events sent via Gmail in my Google Calendar without agreeing to Google using that data for "improving the services for everyone" and sharing that data with 3rd parties.
> In other contexts the same people are complaining
How do you know it’s the same people? That type of wording insinuates this is a type of person who is a hypocrite, yet I have never once saw someone making that claim who also showed it really were the same groups making both arguments. It looks more like a way to discredit separate but tangential groups one doesn’t like by making them look like one big contradiction.
Only the first one seems to be a pre-AI thing, right? Which is a feature I've always hated and always disabled, because the email-to-calendar automation was always wonky, and would consistently put flights on my calendar with the wrong information.
I was going to say the same thing. I'd be glad to disable this "feature", and this seems like an easy way to accomplish it. I'm also happy if I can get rid of that message about Gemini asking to summarize my stuff. I find it distracting and will be happy to remove it.
> Please don't complain that a submission is inappropriate. If a story is spam or off-topic, flag it. Don't feed egregious comments by replying; flag them instead. If you flag, please don't also comment that you did.
I think once you understand the context, it does make sense and would make it clear it isn't a "rant", but I also understand that that would require to actually do some reading so easier with a knee-jerk reaction to it instead.
Gmail is a great tool. I don't use it anymore except when required (Android). I once got locked out of my gmail account and, despite knowing the right password, never gained access to it again, including all that was attached to it (Android Apps, Software ISync etc.).
Dovecot + postfix + spamassassin for mail.
radicale for CalDAV/CardDAV (calendar and contacts).
Squirrelmail for webmail used to be ok (though I haven't used it in a long time).
Or there's an embarrassment of riches out there if you prefer to pay someone for a nice web-based zero-management thing. I can't really recommend one, but I was reselling a whitelabel email service with pretty reasonable capacity and featureset to a bunch of businesses for $5/month/user about 5 years ago. A couple of people I know seem to like protonmail.
Some ISPs might even still provide email. Though that leads to a vendor-lock-in problem and you're better paying for something distinct from your ISP IMO. Same goes for the addresses Apple hands out "free" to their users.
The main trick is to remember the old adage: "If you're not paying for it, you are the product" - If you don't want to pay for email then you might as well just stick with google.
The first sentence says it all. Sounds like linux cake meme. I would try finding docker image with all email things working out of the box - if such thing exists.
Suggestion to other providers is also... something. I have been using other providers. Proton does not allow me to use IMAP on free. Other servers have much spam, which I have been able to clear with some cronjob, but also that is a poor job. Besides... how do you know that other companies are better on serving you? How can I know if they sell my data to China?
And self hosting is tough, even though it is easier than has ever been.
So you’re fine with your data being slurped. Migrating away doesn’t take that much effort. Redirecting some dns records and setting a forward-all rule in the old email address. What am I missing?
Changing the email address associated with all of your accounts is a nightmare. Having changed my name recently, it was easier to just make a new google account than to try and change the email on my old one
Well I’m not sure which platform you’re migrating to but I wouldn’t be surprised if there is some automation tool to help (if self hosting). For example, Fastmail has a quick guide for transferring (including the pieces you mention): https://www.fastmail.help/hc/en-us/articles/360058752414-Mig...
Thanks for the recommendation, but even with automation it requires a bunch of work, probably most it will be testing and making sure it all works, so how to automate it isn't really why I'm putting it off.
> When smart features are on, your data may be used to improve these features [...] To improve our services. If you have turned on any of the smart features settings, we may also process your Workspace Content & Activity to improve these features. [...] Developing new products and features [...] Performing research
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