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No, what they should do instead is decentralize energy generation to the point that we're in cockroach mode. And if that means that transportation of goods gets priority over transportation of people then so be it until we've figured that one out.

The sooner we get this over with the better. Install as much solar and wind as we can and get to the point where we have a glut and then back the up with decentralized storage.



> cockroach mode

What does this mean?


Get decentralized to the point that no single point of failure will result in wholesale outages: resilient as cockroaches. You can't do that if you have interconnects that have to work for society to work. The centralized electrical grid was a great idea and it got us very far. But it is just too fragile. Much better if you can have many (millions) of points of generation, storage and consumption and a far more opportunistic level of interconnect.


> decentralized to the point that no single point of failure will result in wholesale outages

This is a good goal. But it needs to be more rigorously defined. Autarky can be done. But then you need to accept North Korean living standards.

> Much better if you can have many (millions) of points of generation, storage and consumption and a far more opportunistic level of interconnect

Again, to a degree. You can't decentrally power a modern city. So that means either no more cities, which is expensive, or ruinously-expensive power in cities, which again, in practice, means de-industrialisation.


> This is a good goal. But it needs to be more rigorously defined. Autarky can be done. But then you need to accept North Korean living standards.

I'm not sure that's a diss you think it is. They still live better than most societies did at the beginning of the 20th century.

And their current standard of living would also be lifted if not for economic sanctions. The reality is that North Korea is generally a very resource poor geographic location, which ultimately limits your development without trade.


> But then you need to accept North Korean living standards.

I'm not sure that's true.

> Again, to a degree. You can't decentrally power a modern city.

I'm not sure that that is true either, but it will take a lot more work than to do this for less densely populated areas. In general I'm not sure if 'modern cities' are long term sustainable.


> not sure that's true

To be clear, I'm not either. But decentralisation requires sacrificing economies of scale. And total autarky is a proven failure. Between that and complete integration is probably a more-independent equilibrium for Europe. But it will require paying a price.

> In general I'm not sure if 'modern cities' are long term sustainable

Sure. Maybe. Until then, the economies that field them will call the shots. (Based on everything I've read, cities are far more sustainable than dispersed living.)


> But it will require paying a price.

I don't doubt that it requires paying a price. The only relevant question is whether that price is substantially lower or substantially higher than continuing on our current track. I'm open to be convinced that it is higher but I strongly believe that it is lower because with increased fragility you're playing the dice and one day they'll come up in a way that hurts you. The more people there will be in those baskets that harder it will hurt.

As for the future of cities: the internet has given us one thing: independence from having to go to cities to work. Combine that with the ridiculous energy expense on commuting and it seems like a complete no-brainer that we should just stop doing that. COVID has already shown us that this is far more possible than we ever thought it was.


> relevant question is whether that price is substantially lower or substantially higher than continuing on our current track

It's higher than prevailing prices. And it gets higher the more autarkic and decentralised the system needs to be.

> with increased fragility you're playing the dice and one day they'll come up in a way that hurts you

Agree. It looks like insurance pricing. How much extra are your citizens willing to pay every year to reduce supply disruptions?


> It's higher than prevailing prices. And it gets higher the more autarkic and decentralised the system needs to be.

I don't actually think that that is true. If I look at the cost / KWh + the network costs + various subsidies you can probably supply a house for a lifetime if you the energy consumption costs for that same lifetime and spent them up front on decentralized generation + storage.

It's all about the density, not so much about the cost and as the density goes up so do the complications and the costs. But if you have enough ground (which really isn't all that much) it is perfectly doable today, and probably you'll be in the black in a surprisingly low number of years. The higher the cost of oil the higher the cost of gas, and the higher the cost of gas the higher the cost per KWh (this may vary depending on where you live).

> How much extra are your citizens willing to pay every year to reduce supply disruptions?

That's a very good question. Probably not much until it starts to happen regularly, so I would expect that problem to solve itself over time. Energy has been a hot topic for the last decade and with every price shock it is getting easier to convince people that if they had more autonomy they would be less affected. Solar + heatpumps have exploded in Europe in the last decade and that trend has not stopped, in spite of a reduction in net metering. Ironically, the biggest stumbling blocks are the governments that want to tax energy but see no way of doing this if it is generated and consumed on the spot.


Centralization of power distribution is a national security risk in every country.

The only problem is that we have to convince the centralized power industries to give up their complete control of our local and global economies.

I have been thinking about this for decades, as the path forward has been obvious for that long. Those in control just keep doubling down.

It appears that they would rather destroy our ecosystems, and risk economic collapse, instead of just adjusting their investment strategies.


Precisely. But if it isn't clear now then the only way it will become clear will be through catastrophe.


Then catastrophe it is!

But seriously, that appears to be the trajectory.


Unfortunately, agreed.

I once joked to some friends that the Mennonites would be the only people that would get through the next energy crisis without so much as blinking.


As they don't depend on fossil fuels to power their businesses or lighting at home.


With centralized electrical generation, you get massive economies of scale. It would be very costly to duplicate generation when you can extend lines from a current grid so cheaply. The efficiency of large power plants also results in a reduced carbon footprint. Duplication would be paying much more for a decentralized grids, while producing less electricity from inputs at higher cost.


This sounds nice and all, but also very very hard in Scandinavia. Not impossible though, there's at least one guy who's done it!

https://h2roadtrip.com/mr-hydrogen-sweden-lives-almost-a-dec...

Rather extreme, but technically possible!


I did it in Canada where the winters and latitude are very comparable to Scandinavia.


That very much depends on where in Canada you are! Canada is huge, and parts of it are further north than even Northern Sweden! But from what I understand most Canadians live in the southern end of the country, which is comparable to Germany. Stockholm is at ~60N for your reference


Northern Ontario (St. Joseph's Island).


According to Google, that's 46N, which puts you south of Paris(which is at 48N)!

That's not comparable to Scandinavia at all!

This video does a good job of illustrating just how much further north Europe is than most people think

https://youtube.com/shorts/C7-t_Ya6gI4?si=3EnxpFce59-VZb8B


Oh come off it. I'm North of Paris right now (and South of Sweden) and it is absolutely nothing Like Northern Ontario, which has a 3 month growth season and winter temperatures go below -40 on some days. Paris is smack in the sweet spot for the Atlantic conveyor.


If you want to become self sufficient in electricity, the number of sun hours matters more than anything else.

Low temperatures just means you need more insulation, and possibly geothermal of it gets too cold for a regular heatpump.But try to generate enough power with a solar panel when you get 3 consecutive months of almost no sun at all!

The temperature isn't even the issue, the darkness is.


Low temperature even makes PV slightly more efficient.




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